Druid Tanks! Extensive Guide to Bear Tanking

[New Order Footman (NWO)]

Damage Mitigation and Armor:

We must first debunk the myth about diminishing returns. For this, I'll use Drakkdude's post:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...mp=1#post702194

Quoted from Drakkdude in "In-Depth Druid Guide[Math]"

Q u o t e:

Section 5: Armor and "Diminishing Returns"

The more armor you have, the less Damage Reduction you will gain from each point of armor you add. Let's investigate this idea by taking a look at the Damage Reduction formula:

Damage Reduction = Armor / (Armor + 85*level + 400)

http://www.worldofwar.net/guides/damagereduction.php

Now assuming that you're level 60, here's a chart showing how much of a difference adding 2750 armor will make in terms of damage reduction.

Armor Damage Reduction DR% Gained Armor Gained

0 0.00 %

2750 33.33 % +33.33 % +2750 Armor

5500 50.00 % +16.67 % +2750 Armor

8250 60.00 % +10.00 % +2750 Armor

11000 66.67 % +6.67 % +2750 Armor

13750 71.43 % +4.76 % +2750 Armor

16500 75.00 % +3.57 % +2750 Armor

So with the same exact increase in armor, we can clearly see that the Damage Reduction gained is less and less and less for the more armor you have.

BUT! Let's not wrap this up just yet! Let's take this hypothetical situation:

Say you have 1000 hitpoints and you're fighting a mob that hits for 100 every second. Knowing how much armor gives a certain damage reduction, we can then figure out how much DPS the mob will actually be doing by simply subtracting 100 - DR%, since it's a simple 100 DPS. Then we can find out how long you will live by dividing 1000 health by the incoming DPS. Here are the results:

Armor DR % Incoming DPS Time to Live Seconds of Life Gained

0 0.00 % 100.00 DPS 10 sec

2750 33.33 % 66.67 DPS 15 sec +5 sec of life

5500 50.00 % 50.00 DPS 20 sec +5 sec of life

8250 60.00 % 40.00 DPS 25 sec +5 sec of life

11000 66.67 % 33.33 DPS 30 sec +5 sec of life

13750 71.43 % 28.57 DPS 35 sec +5 sec of life

16500 75.00 % 25.00 DPS 40 sec +5 sec of life

Notice anything between the two charts? Even though the damage reduction % gained is less and less as we add 2750 armor, the time to live is increased by the same EXACT amount each time. And thus, while there certainly is diminishing returns on "Damage Reduction", there is absolutely no diminishing returns on armor itself :)

The above shows that Armor is indeed not on diminishing returns, however there is a hard cap on it.

Quoted from Drakkdude in "*PROOF* - Armor Cap at 75% DR - [Math][Long]"

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...=773550&P=1

Q u o t e:

When it comes to bear tanking and stats, there seems to be two huge areas of misconceptions. The first of course is the idea that armor has "diminishing returns" since you get less and less damage reduction percent the more armor you have. However, this is completely and utterly false, as proven here: http://tinyurl.com/gyo7o

Moving on.

The second area of debate is surrounding the supposed 75% armor cap. Screenshots have been posted time and again of Druids with massive amounts of armor, on the order of 20,000 and above. With Inspiration, Lay on Hands, etc, some Druids have gotten their character sheet to show 80%, 85% or even over 90% damage reduction. However, the tooltip in the character sheet is nothing but misleading. No matter how much armor someone has, they will not get any benefit whatsoever past the 75% damage reduction mark. Blizzard has set a hard cap on this, which is the effective value of armor in battle; or in other words, the only armor that matters. (Just remember that most raid bosses are NOT level 60 and thus you need a tiny bit more armor to reach 75%.)

Anyway, let's get to the math.

I decided to test this by heading out into Durotar and letting the same exact mob hit me with varying amounts of armor. For my experiment, I chose the Elder Mottled Boars (Level 9s only) of northern Durotar. Since they are such low level, it would be easy to get the 75% armor cap and make some definitive conclusions.

1. For the first test run, I used absolutely no armor at all and no Mark of the Wild. (The only armor was 110, from 55 base agility).

Here are the results: http://tinyurl.com/mgygh

110 armor against a level 9 mob is about 8.63% Damage Reduction. Getting hit exactly 100 times yielded an average of 12.58 damage. Factoring out the 8.63% Damage Reduction due to the 110 base armor gives approximately 13.768 base damage per hit. [12.58/(1-0.0863)]

http://www.worldofwar.net/guides/damagereduction.php

2. Moving on. Using the same link as above, I found the 75% damage reduction point to be at approximately 3495 AC for a level 9 opponent. So I equipped enough armor to get as close as possible to that as I could.

Here's the same test I ran before, but using 3496 AC (damn, not bad :) http://tinyurl.com/qxpxl

As we can see, the average hit over 100 hits with 3496 AC was 3.44 damage. This is exactly in line with previous calculations: 13.768 * 0.25 = 3.442. Perfect. Dead on.

3. So at this point, there was only one test to run and one question left to be answered: equip as much armor as possible and see how much of a difference it would make.

I'll let the picture speak for itself: http://tinyurl.com/o8d8j

That's right! Even though I equipped *9273* more armor than the second run, I was hit for the *EXACT* same amount over the course of 100 hits. The *EXACT* same.

Conclusion:

Thus we can see that there is indeed a 75% damage reduction cap, based on your level and your target's level. However, remembering that there is absolutely ZERO diminishing returns on armor, there really is no reason to not strive for 16,500 armor as long as other tank stats aren't sacrificed. (Although since raid bosses are normally around 61-63, the 75% cap will actually be higher; for example 17265 AC is needed against a level 63 mob, 765 over the cap at level 60)

After Establishing that there are no diminishing returns and that AC does have a hard cap, we need to compare the damage taken between a warrior and a druid especially because of the disparity between +defense and AC.

Incoming Damage Mitigation:

We all know +defense reduces the number of crits taken, dodge %, block %, parry %, and miss %. After an analysis of numbers, +Defense holds no advantage over AC in terms of long term damage mitigation. However, +defense does help negate or prevent burst damage from chain crits. AC, on the other hand, aims at reducing the damage enough to prevent chain crits from killing a tank. +Defense and AC are 2 separate means to the same end, although +defense probably out races AC to that end (especially considering the hard cap at 75% DR).

Druid = 15565 AC or 73.0% reduction

Warrior = 9089 AC or 61.2% reduction

For this, lets say Random_Boss hits for 5000 per swing of unmitigated damage and has the usual 5% chance to crit.

Normal Hits:

Druid = 5000 * (1-.730) = 1350 damage

Warrior = 5000 * (1-.612) *.9 = 1746 damage

Crits:

Druid = 2 * 5000 * (1-.730) = 2700 damage

Warrior = No Crits Taken

But if there was: 2 * 5000 * (1 - .612) *.9 = 3492 damage

Crushing Blows:

Druid = 1.5 * 5000 * (1-.730) = 2025 damage

Warrior = 1.5 * 5000 * (1-.612) *.9 = 2619 damage

Blocked Attacks:

Druid = Cannot Block

Warrior = [5000 * (1-.612) - 179] *.9 = 1585 damage

Based on this, we observe that warriors take nearly as much damage from a crushing blow (cannot be dodged, blocked, parried, or reduced by +defense) than a druid does from a critical.

Now, one of the most important stats of tanking is the damage taken per hour, so lets examine the differences between a warrior and a druid.

Lets assume Random_Boss from above swings at a 2.00 second swing speed and is still doing 5000 damage per swing with a 5.6% crit rate, 4.4% chance to miss and a 15% crushing blow rate (the standard rates for bosses). Therefore the boss will get in exactly 1800 swings in one hour.

Druid has +31 defense or 1.24% reduction in crits, 19.39% dodge, and 5.64% miss rate

1800 * 19.39% = 349.02 swings will be dodged. Rounded up to 349.

1800 * (4.4+1.24)% = 101.52 swings will miss. Rounded up to 102.

1800 * (5.6-1.24)% = 78.48 swings will be crits. Rounded up to 78.

1800 * 15% = 270 swings will be crushing blows.

1800 349 - 102 78 270 = 1001 normal melee swings taken

Total Damage Taken:

Crits = (2 * 5000 * .270) * 78 = 210,600 damage from crits

Crushing Blows = (1.5 * 5000 * .270) * 270 = 546,750 damage from crushing blows

Normal Melee = (5000 * .270) * 1001 = 1,351,350 damage from normal melee

Total Damage Taken = 2,108,700

Warrior has +144 defense or 5.76% reduction in crits, 15.21% dodge, 17.76% parry (+2% from wrath set bonus considering 50% block rate), 26.76% chance to block with a block value of 179, and 10.16% miss.

1800 * 15.21% = 273.78 swings will be dodged. Rounded to 274.

1800 * 19.76% = 355.83 swings will be parried. Rounded up to 356.

1800 * (4.4 + 5.76)% = 182.88 swings will miss. Rounded up to 183.

1800 * (5.6-5.76)% = 0 Crits taken.

1800 * 15% = 270 swings will be crushing blows.

1800 274 - 356 - 183 - 270 = 717 normal melee swings taken

Total Damage Taken:

Crits = 0 damage from crits

Crushing Blows = [(1.5 * 5000 * .388) * .9] * 270 = 707,130 damage from crushing blows

Normal Melee = [((5000 * .388) - 179) * .9)] * 717 = 1,136,373 damage taken from normal melee (Used 100% block chance)

Total Damage Taken = 1,843,503

% Difference between warrior and druid?

2,108,700 / 1,843,503 = 1.144 or 14.4% more physical damage taken by the druid assuming a warrior blocks 100% of attacks (which never happens) and takes 0 crits.

Warriors will always mitigate 10% of magic damage, which is something druids can't replicate. Therefore, we can assume druids will take 10% more magic damage than does a warrior.

DAMAGE MITIGATION EQUIVALENCY

Ever wondered what was better between AGI, +DEF, or AC? Well here is an equivalency to help you decide! (Armor values are the increase IN BEAR FORM)

7k 8k 9k 10k 11k 12k 13k 14k 15k 16k 17k

10 129.50 139.65 149.81 159.96 170.11 180.26 190.42 200.57 210.72 220.87 231.03

11 130.83 141.09 151.34 161.60 171.86 182.11 192.37 202.63 212.88 223.14 233.39

12 132.19 142.55 152.91 163.27 173.64 184.00 194.36 204.73 215.09 225.45 235.81

13 133.57 144.04 154.51 164.98 175.46 185.93 196.40 206.87 217.34 227.81 238.28

14 134.98 145.57 156.15 166.73 177.31 187.89 198.48 209.06 219.64 230.22 240.80

15 136.43 147.12 157.82 168.51 179.21 189.90 200.60 211.29 221.99 232.68 243.38

16 137.90 148.71 159.52 170.34 181.15 191.96 202.77 213.58 224.39 235.20 246.01

17 139.41 150.34 161.27 172.20 183.13 194.05 204.98 215.91 226.84 237.77 248.70

18 140.95 152.00 163.05 174.10 185.15 196.20 207.25 218.30 229.35 240.40 251.45

19 142.53 153.70 164.87 176.04 187.22 198.39 209.56 220.74 231.91 243.08 254.26

20 144.14 155.44 166.73 178.03 189.33 200.63 211.93 223.23 234.53 245.83 257.13

21 145.78 157.21 168.64 180.07 191.50 202.93 214.35 225.78 237.21 248.64 260.07

22 147.47 159.03 170.59 182.15 193.71 205.27 216.83 228.39 239.95 251.51 263.08

23 149.19 160.89 172.58 184.28 195.98 207.67 219.37 231.06 242.76 254.46 266.15

24 150.96 162.79 174.63 186.46 198.30 210.13 221.96 233.80 245.63 257.47 269.30

25 152.77 164.74 176.72 188.69 200.67 212.65 224.62 236.60 248.57 260.55 272.53

Table Explanation: The top is the amount of AC you have in bear form (rounded obviously) while the left side is your current %dodge (rounded again).

This is based on damage per hour mitigation. Obviously each has their own secondary effect such as +crit and -crit taken, but this shows you in terms of long term damage mitigation!

After examining damage mitigation, or the means for staying alive, we need to examine how much aggro each class can generate. For this, I feel the best source is Earnur's post "Bear Aggro > Warrior Aggro? Maybe not"

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...=744351&P=1

Q u o t e:

While I appreciate the work done in the thread previously discussing this topic, I felt that the tests where both quite arbitrary and quite flawed. Admittedly, I hadn't thought a whole lot about Bear Form viability, perhaps because it's rarely done. So I ventured to shed some light on the subject, for myself alone, if for nobody else.

First off, I assembled a "dream" list of gear for both Warriors and Feral Druids; I got the best available equipment out there, mostly found in BWL, AQ40, and the Green Dragons (I'll post the equipment lists later if anyone is interested).

Second, I added the standard raid buffs, and went a bit further to accomodate Druids' tanking style. The buffs I included are all improved versions, and include MotW, PW:F, Battle Shout, Blood Pact, and Trueshot Aura.

Here are the stats for both classes, using the Tauren as the race.

Feral Druid

HP: 10840

Armor: 14241

Defense: 329

Dodge%: 17

AP: 1554

Crit%: 21.45

+Hit%: 3

Protection Warrior

HP: 9627

Armor: 9726

Defense: 442

Dodge%: 23

Parry%: 18

Block%: 21

Block Amnt.: 163

AP: 1190

Crit%: 14.4

+Hit%: 0

EDIT: The original values for Feral Druid HP were incorrect. The new values are accurate.

--------------------------------------------------

Now, on to threat.

A druid with these stats has a base DPS of 161.57 and a 2.5 attack speed, yielding 403.93 damage per normal hit.

Maul adds 128 damage per hit, yielding 638.31 damage after talents. Add in a crit% of 21.45%, and you get 775.23 damage per Maul on average. With NW added in, that's 852.75 damage.

Swipe does 83 damage flat, or 99.6 damage after talents, and thus 120.96 damage after factoring in crits. With NW added in, that's 133.06 damage.

Maul gives 852.75 * 1.75 * 1.45 threat, or 2163.85

per swing. This is 865.54 threat per second (TPS) because of the 2.5 attack speed. Swipe gives 337.64 threat per use, and thus 225.09 TPS (1.5 second global cooldown).

Taken together, and assuming infinite rage (as the post in the previous thread did), you get 1097.39

total TPS, which is extremely impressive.

EDIT: Updated to include Natural Weapons (NW).

--------------------------------------------------

Now on to Warrior threat:

Using a SLOW weapon, Spineshatter, a Warrior will get 139.9 DPS, or 360.1 damage per hit.

The new HS gives +157 damage, for a total of 591.57 damage factoring in a 14.4% crit rate.

Revenge does 90 average damage, or 101.93 after crits.

(All 1H weapon attacks factor in 10% damage bonus from talents as well as the 90% damage done in defensive stance.

Shield Slam does 500 average damage, or 514.8 after crits and after .9% damage done in defense stance.

Sunder does no damage.

Heroic Strike does (591.57 + 145)* 1.45 threat, which turns out to be 1068.02 per swing.

Revenge does (101.93 + 315) * 1.45 threat, or 604.55

Shield Slam does (514.8 + 250) * 1.45 threat, or 1108.96

Sunder does a constant (261) * 1.45 threat, or 378.45.

To calculate the total Warrior TPS, it's a bit more complicated. Heroic Strike can be used constantly, so it's total TPS is 410.78. For the other skills, I took a one minute time interval and used the skills when available / cooldown was finished, and used the 1.5 global cooldown timer. HS would generate 24646.61 threat over one minute.

Over one minute, Revenge can be used 12 times (once per 5 seconds), assuming shield block spam (which is not on the global timer). That's a total of 7254.59 threat using 18 seconds. Over the same time period, Shield Slam can be used 10 times, for 11089.6 threat using 15 seconds. Sunder is used the rest of the 27 seconds, for 6812.1 threat over 18 uses.

The total threat per minute from all skills would be 49803, or 830.05 TPS.

EDIT: For Alcor's Sunrazor, the HS damage would change to 130.9 DPS, 168.47 damage per hit, 372.34 HS per hit w/ crits included, and HS TPS of 577.03.

--------------------------------------------------

So it would appear that Druids generate much more aggro than Warriors, right? It's clear that 1097.39 TPS is much more than 827.36 TPS with Spineshatter (or 993.61 TPS with Alcor's Sunrazor).

What I want to point out is that ALL the previous calculations were done with 0.00% enemy damage mitigation, which is NEVER found end-game. Since druids rely entirely on damage for their aggro, their ability to generate aggro declines drastically when the enemy has any armor whatsoever.

At 30% damage mitigation (very common in 40 man raids):

- Druid TPS: 830.66

- Warrior TPS: 696.05 (Spineshatter)

- Warrior TPS: 739.16 (Quel'Serrar)

- Warrior TPS: 836.69 (Alcor's Sunrazor)

At 40% mitigation (still common)

- Druid TPS: 741.75

- Warrior TPS: 647.93 (Spineshatter)

- Warrior TPS: 688.35 (Quel'Serrar)

- Warrior TPS: 780.03 (Alcor's Sunrazor)

At 45% mitigation (still common)

- Druid TPS: 697.29

- Warrior TPS: 623.87 (Spineshatter)

- Warrior TPS: 662.94 (Quel'Serrar)

- Warrior TPS: 751.70 (Alcor's Sunrazor)

It's clear that on such end-game encounters, Druids are at equal footing with Warriors in terms of rage generation. At some point, any amount of TPS is superfluous - I doubt your Rogues are generating an excess of 800-900 DPS (remember, they have .8 multiplied innately to all their damage).

Now, couple that with the fact that in this "dream" test case:

Warrior has only 1200 less HP (smaller margain than I had anticipated).

Warrior has max defense, druid is very low.

Warrior has more %dodge, 18% parry, 21% block 163 damage per hit, and only 8.0% less damage mitigation from Armor.

Warrior can use potions, tubers, ND Breath, Shield Wall, Last Stand

The biggest thing that stands out to me is the Druid's lack of Defense (there is no defense on any cloth or leather pieces). The #1 tank killer, in my experience, is crits, followed by crushing blows. The latter you cannot avoid, past 300 defense, the former you can. Most bosses will have around 4.5% crit versus this "dream" set of druid armor, though I know druids can go higher by sacrificing other stats (though not much higher).

I don't see the Druid doing that well versus bosses like Broodlord, where his Mortal Strike CAN crit, and when followed by a blastwave, will take you out, regardless of your 14k armor.

It seems that Warriors will continue to have an advantage in every category over Druids in end-game tanking. I do, however, see the viability of Druids in this same role.

EDIT: Updated with statistics from Alcor's Sunrazor.

EDIT: Updated with more correct Warrior statistics

EDIT: Included Quel'Serrar, and updated my conclusions. [/quote

Earnur concluded that warriors have the advantage in every category over druids, yet he himself proved how slight the aggro is in a case of infinite rage. However, there is no situation aside from Vael where either class will have infinite rage. Druids operate on less rage per second than does a warrior. This means in limited rage situations, druids will out aggro a warrior.

Quoted from Earnur's Thread on Page 7, Post 134.

Rage requirements for general (and my future info):

Warrior: (not including shield block)

Shield Slam: 20 * 10 = 200

Revenge: 5 * 12 = 60

Sunder: 18 * 12 = 216

Heroic Strike: 12 * (60/1.3) = 553.85 Alcor's

12 * (60/2.6) = 276.92 SpineShatter

Total: 1129.85 or 17.16 RPS Alcor's

852.92 or 12.55 RPS Spineshatter

Druid (including Idol of Brutality):

Maul: 7 * 24 = 168

Swipe: 12 * 40 = 480

Total: 648 or 10.8 RPS

However, druids get 5 rage back per crit so we have to include that. We had a total of 64 attacks at 21.45% crit rate. That means 13.73 attacks will crit and will return 68.64 Rage.

Adjusted druid Total: 648 - 68.64 = 9.65 RPS

We can see the warrior rage requirement is much higher than a druid's.

Conclusion: Druids will hold aggro better on nearly every boss in the game. If you include sunder and faerie fire nearly every boss will be under 30% mitigation which is where a druid out aggros anyway. For all general purposes, I think its safe to say druids hold the advantage on warriors for aggro generation.

The gear used for my calculations of damage per hour. I also used completely unbuffed, however the buffs stack equally for each class. So it won't effect the calculations.

DON'T MAKE THIS THE SUBJECT OF DEBATE! Small changes here and there won't change the numbers dramatically. For druids I try to maximize both aggro generation and damage mitigation. I could increased the mitigation a good bit with different gear.

TaurenWarrior

TaurenWarrior

Level 60 Tauren Warrior

Stats

Strength: 288

Agility: 129

Stamina: 503

Intellect: 25

Spirit: 47

Armor: 9089

Health: 6970

Mana: 0

Arcane Resistance: 10

Fire Resistance: 55

Nature Resistance: 20

Frost Resistance: 10

Shadow Resistance: 30

Bonuses

Equip: Increased Defense +119.

Equip: Increases the block value of your shield by 80.

Equip: Increases your chance to dodge an attack by 3%.

Equip: Increases your chance to parry an attack by 2%.

Equip: 14 Defense

Equip: 30 Shield Block Value

Equip: Restores 5 health every 5 sec.

Equip: Increases your chance to block attacks with a shield by 11%.

Equip: Increases the attack power granted by Battle Shout by 30.

Equip: 20% chance after using an offensive ability requiring rage that your next offensive ability requires 0 less rage to use.

Equip: 4% chance to parry the next attack after a block.

Other Stats

Back: Cloak of the Golden Hive

Chest: Breastplate of Wrath (Health +100)

Feet: Sabatons of Wrath (Stamina +7)

Left Finger: Signet Ring of the Bronze Dragonflight

Right Finger: Angelista's Touch

Hands: Gauntlets of Wrath (Agility +15)

Head: Helm of Wrath (Defense +7, Stamina +10, Shield Block Value +15)

Legs: Legplates of Wrath (Defense +7, Stamina +10, Shield Block Value +15)

Neck: Master Dragonslayer's Medallion

Shouders: Pauldrons of Wrath

Left Trinket: Onyxia Blood Talisman

Right Trinket: Styleen's Impeding Scarab

Waist: Waistband of Wrath

Wrist: Bracelets of Wrath (Stamina +9)

Mainhand: Bloodlord's Defender (Agility +15)

Offhand: Blessed Qiraji Bulwark (Stamina +7)

--------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------

TaurenDruid

Level 60 Tauren Druid

Stats

Strength: 170

Agility: 219

Stamina: 340

Intellect: 114

Spirit: 112

Armor: 3725

Health: 5043

Mana: 2674

Arcane Resistance: 10

Fire Resistance: 7

Nature Resistance: 17

Frost Resistance: 7

Shadow Resistance: 13

Bonuses

Equip: Increases your chance to dodge an attack by 7%.

Equip: +122 Attack Power.

Equip: Improves your chance to hit by 3%.

Equip: Increased Defense +31.

Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 2%.

Equip: Increases your chance to parry an attack by 1%.

Other Stats

Back: Elementium Threaded Cloak (Increases your chance to dodge an attack by 1%.)

Chest: Malfurion's Blessed Bulwark (Health +100)

Feet: Boots of the Shadow Flame (Agility +7)

Left Finger: Heavy Dark Iron Ring

Right Finger: Ring of Emperor Vek'lor

Hands: Gloves of the Hidden Temple (Agility +15)

Head: Guise of the Devourer (Increases your chance to dodge an attack by 1%.)

Legs: Dark Heart Pants (Increases your chance to dodge an attack by 1%.)

Neck: Master Dragonslayer's Medallion

Shouders: Defiler's Leather Shoulders

Left Trinket: Mark of Tyranny

Right Trinket: Smoking Heart of the Mountain

Waist: Thick Qirajihide Belt

Wrist: Qiraji Execution Bracers (Stamina +9)

Mainhand: Warden Staff (Agility +25)

Edit: Changed this to be more reader friendly!

Q u o t e:

Here's the long and short of it (mostly long of it):

Q u o t e:

Threat Generation:

--Warriors rely on certain combinations of skills that have a static amount of additional threat associated with them with few multipliers. Sunder armor/Revenge/HS/Shield Slam/etc are all skills that have a relatively high amount of threat tied to them that is simply added to the amount of threat-by-damage these skills can do.

--Most of a Druid's threat generation is directly based on their damage; there are multipliers put in place on both of their high aggro, spammable (Swipe is only affected by the U/C while Maul is on a 2.5 second cooldown) skills. Faerie fire and Demoralizing Roar are nice, but FF is on a 6 second cooldown and DR isn't effective from purely a Threat Generated/Rage Cost standpoint.

What this means:

Warrior's threat generation doesn't scale very well with better gear. Yes, they are doing more damage with better weapons/armor, but a majority of their threat is done by skills that are not huge damage dealers. Druids' threat generation, on the other hand, does scale pretty well with improved DPS oriented gear, as the amount of threat they generate is directly related to their damage output. Of course, a mob's armor comes into play. High armored mobs will greatly reduce a druid's damage, and therefore will reduce a significant amount of his threat generation; warriors aren't affected nearly as much in this regard. At some theoretical DPS point against a given mob, a druid will overtake a warrior within the current game mechanics; whether some Druids are at that point or not while still maintaining excellent damage mitigation, we can't tell for certain. However, it's close.

Damage Mitigation:

--Warriors have a good number of attributes that when added together can mitigate a large amount of damage. Armor, dodge, parry, Defensive Stance, block, and the big one, +Defense, are major contributors to reducing damage. Warriors will rely on large amounts of +Defense gear, which improves many of their base avoidance stats and helps to prevent the hated crit strings that usually kill tanks without healers being able to do anything about it. With their high avoidance rate/reduced crit %, incoming damage can be a bit spiky (series of dodges/parries followed by a series of hits), but a warrior is geared in such a way as to prevent a good many of those devastating crits.

--Druids have fewer ways of mitigating damage, so they must specialize their gear in order to maximize their advantages. Druids rely heavily on huge amounts of armor/life and a decent dodge rate (no parry, block, defensive stance, etc) to mitigate damage. As such, instead of trying to reduce the number of heavy hits they take, they rely on their superior armor and life to absorb these hits long enough for healers to catch up. +Defense gear is nice, but it doesn't scale nearly as well for druids as it does for warriors, so most druids won't focus on obtaining it over other gear.

What this means:

Warriors and druids mitigate damage (and base their survival upon certain attributes) very differently. Warriors tend to avoid more hits due to their superior dodge/parry/etc while a druid will typically take less damage on those hits that are landed. Druids try to absorb devastating hits while warriors aim to prevent them. As such, druids may take more big hits yet generally will have lower, more stabilized incoming damage whereas a warrior will avoid more big hits yet take damage in a slightly more erratic manner. Where warriors have a big advantage is with defensive stance on incoming damage that is not mitigated by armor (i.e. magic damage). Druids have no counter to this, and once again must rely on a their lifepool to survive long enough for their healers to pull them thru. In the end, there isn't a significant difference between the two-it basically comes down to a fight-to-fight basis and healer preference.

Other items of note

--Druids cannot use most consumeables in bearform. This is a big deal on a lot of fights where the tank needs to give his healers an extra second to catch up after a huge hit.

--With talents, a protection specced warrior in defensive stance will generate the same base amount of threat as a feral specced bear. Defensive stance and bearform both get the inherent 30% additional threat and both classes have talents to improve that by an additional 15%.

--It is said that shield blocks are potentially negating a number of crushing blows/critical strikes. I don't know if this has gotten any confirmation or whether it's intended or not, but that can be a big advantage to shield block spamming warriors.

--In "OH $hit" situations, warriors have a slight advantage over druids. No raid tanking specced druid will have Nature's Swiftness-the typical druid survival panic skill-and those that do should never leave bearform to use it; against raid bosses, it means instant death. Druids do have a nice bearform HoT to use, but HoTs aren't terribly effective in a situation that requires an immediate fix. Prot. specced warriors have Shield Wall and Last Stand as emergency options that grant far better immediate survivability than anything a druid has.

--Druids have a better quick intercept skill than warriors, and they don't have to leave their highest damage mitigation form to use it. Against Knockback mobs, this can be useful.

-Whichdoctor from the post "Feral Druids?"

Really liked this summation, so I'm going to use it here.

Frequently Asked Questions:

What advantagess do druid tanks have?

Druids hold several advantages over warriors tanks. One of the largest and most important includes the potential to generate more aggro (More on this below). There are other advantages that only apply to certain encounters. Druids are immune to polymorph and mind control effects (not charmed effects like Hakkar or Jin'Do totems though). Along with immunity to polymorph, druids are almost near impossible to snare in any way. Encounters that "snare" the tank which causes the loss in aggro, druids can just do a double shift and get right back to tanking. Warriors must wait out the snare to begin tanking again.

What disadvantages do druid tanks have?

As all things in life and this game, there is a give and take system. Because druids have immunity to snares and polymorph, we must also give up some novelty ability. This ability comes in the use of consumables during battle. Druids can't pop pots or things of that nature. Druids recently received the ability for "Use:" items in forms, but very few pertain to tanking. The other advantage warriors hold over druids is the "oh crap" button. Warriors have things like shield wall that allows them to possibly live through 1 frantic situation every 30 minutes. Warriors also excel in tanking when the mob either has a rapid, low damage attack or there are a massive number of mobs. When you're looking at a zerg situation, the warrior loses his effectiveness if he gets surrounded and can no longer block incoming attacks. The fear mechanic is certainly the downfall to the druid in both PvE and PvP. Warriors have beserker rage which allows them to be immune to fear for 10 seconds on a 30 second cooldown. This is something that druids cannot emulate thruogh items, consumables, talents, or abilities.

How does a druid create aggro and how does it compare to a warrior?

Druids create aggro with 4 abilities. Those abilities are maul, swipe, feral fairie fire, and demoralizing shout. Each has a high innate aggro to it, but the most effective are maul and swipe. Maul should be used on every attack before you begin to use the others. This is because maul has the highest aggro of all the druid attacks and even surpasses every available warrior attack. Something I use to determine my order of generating aggro is this:

Maul > Swipe > Feral fairie fire (FFF) > Demo shout

Just do the things in this order. You should be mauling on every attack. If you have extra rage, then use swipe. If you don't, use FFF every time it is up (6 second cooldown) because it is free. Demo shout should be a last resort for aggro generation or only used to initially gather an area of mobs.

Potential to create more aggro?

Yes, thats what I said and what has been proven. The reason is because the druid's aggro formula includes 2 multipliers. The aggro for maul looks like this:

Maul_Dmg * 1.75 * 1.45 = Aggro generated

This means that druids' aggro scales very quickly with their attack power and crit%. High end druids already hit mauls for over 500 and crit for well over 1000 and this is without AQ40 gear. This means the aggro looks something like this:

500 * 1.75 * 1.45 = 1268.75 aggro generated

1000 * 1.75 * 1.45 = 2537.5 aggro generated**

Warriors have a huge array of aggro abilities to choose from. However, the majority of the time you'll just see revenge, shield slam (if prot specced), sunder, and heroic strike used. The reason is because their aggro values are the highest and warriors will rarely have enough rage to consistently use all of them.

How does a druid mitigate damage and how does it compare to a warrior?

Warriors and druids mitigate both short term and long term damage in completely different manners. Warriors concentrate on reducing the number of crits and hits they take. This is usually called damage avoidance. Druids operate on a system of damage mitigation which means druids plan on taking many hits, but reducing them greatly. The difference will easily be seen when you look at the pattern of damage taken. Druids will take a steady, but higher amount of damage. Warriors will be a "spikey" or variable amount of damage that is based on a hit table or random number generator. This can lead to streaks of dodges or parries but also streaks of hits or crushing blows.

In the end, both classes try to reduce the amount of damage taken total over a long period of time. Which class does this best? Well its the warrior for 2 reasons. First, they have several talents and natural abilities that allow them to avoid damage (such as parry and defensive stance). Second, warrior itemization is vast and forthcoming. Its quite easy to gear up a warrior in the natural progression of raiding or doing instances. Druids lack the array of damage mitigation talents but have a few specific but powerful attributes (thick hide and the 360% modifier). Warriors are provided with tons of +defense which mitigates crits (a powerful tank killer) while druids use flat out mitigation or AC to withstand and reduce those crits. In the end, the warrior and druid have 2 separate means to the same end, but a warrior does out race the druid to that end. This by no means makes a warrior a better tank, as both classes are completely viable to main tank any encounter in the game (except Nefarian because of crazy mechanics).

Tank Killers - Crits, Crushing blows, and their effects.

Probably the #1 most expressed concern against druid tanks is their lack of defense. Lack of +Defense contributes to more crits than a warrior which translates into a greater chance of getting chain crit. Warriors will typically see under 1% crit while druids will hover around 4-5%. The largest difference is in the way both deal with crits and crushing blows.

Crits deal twice the damage and cannot be blocked, parried, or dodged, but only prevented by +defense. Crushing blows on the other hand cannot be blocked, parried, dodged, and are not prevented with +defense past (Lvl * 5).

The easiest way to illustrate the answer to this question is to look at what a crushing blow and crit does to both classes.

Druid = 15565 AC or 73.0% reduction

Warrior = 9059 AC or 61.2% reduction

For this, lets say Random_Boss hits for 5000 per swing of unmitigated damage and has the usual 5% chance to crit and 15% chance to crushing blow.

Crits:

Druid = 2 * 5000 * (1-.721) = 2700 damage

Warrior = No Crits Taken

But if there was: 2 * 5000 * (1 - .622) *.9 = 3492 damage

Crushing Blows:

Druid = 1.5 * 5000 * (1-.730) = 2025 damage

Warrior = 1.5 * 5000 * (1-.612) *.9 = 2619 damage

To keep this simple, lets say a druid will take a flat 5% of crits and a warrior will take 0% while both take 15% crushing blows.

Druid:

Chance to get back to back crits: 5% * 5% or .25%

Damage done by back to back crits: 2700 * 2 = 5400

Chance to get back to back crushing blows: 15% * 15% = 2.25%

Damage done by back to back crushing blows: 2025 * 2 = 4050

Warrior:

Chance to get back to back crits: 0% * 0% = 0%

Chance to get back to back crushing blows: 15% * 15% = 2.25%

Damage done by back to back crushing blows: 2619 * 2 = 5238

Druids will take 5400 damage .25% of the time while warriors take 5238 damage 2.25% of the time. What this comes down to is the difference in each class' style of dealing with crits and crushing blows. While druids won't avoid crits, the damage done is greatly reduced. A warrior will only take ~200 less damage from chain crushing blows than a druid will from chain crits.

The importance of +defense to a druid?

The above shows you the true importance of +defense to a druid. But here is a little bit about why:

From +1 Defense druids receive:

-.04% chance to be crit

+.04% dodge

+.04% Chance to be missed

or +.12% of total avoidance

From +1 Defense warriors receive:

-.04% chance to be crit

+.04% chance to dodge

+.04% chance to be missed

+.04% chance to parry

+.04% chance to block

or +.20% chance for damage avoidance and/or reduction

This means that +1 defense is 66% more effective for a warrior than a druid. Because of this and the itemization in the game, its not efficient or effective for druids to worry about +defense. While it shouldn't be ignored, it should certainly not be concentrated on and should be placed 3rd or below on the importance list (behind +armor and +agi).

So how should I spec?

http://www.wowhead.com/talent/?MzLV0oZxxxscMdtV0b

The above is a link to the "optimal" tank spec. There are several variations but this is the optimal tank build. Other specs like 30/21 and 1/29/21 are good for tanking too. I would suggest you evaluate your roll in your guild and spec accordingly.

Links to other great posts:

Aaelneverron's "Understanding the Druid - Strengths, Weakness"

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...=725847&P=1

Q u o t e:

1st post is Hugehoss's Myths About Bear Tanking post, 2nd and beyond is Chibi's threat generation analysis.

http://forum.designborked.net/viewtopic.ph...f02e0a3890eded3

[Junkie]

moram ovo da kazem pa makar crko :

KAKO TE NIJE MRZELO DA KUCAS TOLIKO???

sry sry ... al jace je od mene ...

[Dejan87]

prvo, nije on kucao ovo nego copy paste

drugo, ako hoces da budesh tank reroll warrior

ae poz

[PrimEviL]

moze li neko da objasni ovom coveku da sada postoji TBC? zaista nemam reci...

[haantall]

volio bih da znam koja je svrha ovoga sto si napisao ? i zasto bi nekog interesovalo nesto ovako ? ako neko zna da igra "DURIDA" onda zna , nema potrebe da cita sve ovo da bi naucio da tankuje ili tako nesto.

Sto se tice dmg-a ,dobar druid sa prosjecnom opremom moze da ubije bilo koju klasu u TBC-u (govorim 1vs1).Malo off sa teme al dobro :D

Edited February 1, 2007 by hanbabz

[New Order Footman (NWO)]

Ovo su stvari koje druidi koji su govorili da druid ne moze da drzi aggro dovoljno dobro u raidu i zbog toga ne moze da bude tank nisu znali i zbog kojih pre skoro 2 godine sa svojim restoration specom i nepoznavanjem mehanike druid tankovanja stvarno nisu mogli nista da istankuju pa su tako dosli do tog zakljucka da druidi ne mogu da drze aggro.

Konkretno je bitna formula za maul i poredjenje threata koji pravi warrior u odnosu na threat druida gde je sve uzeto u obzir i gde je zakljucak nedvosmislen - druid je imao bolji long term threat generation of warriora.

Ostavio sam ovo kao referencu u slucaju da neko opet pocne sa pricama koje se ne zasnivaju na cinjenicama.

[Revenger]

looool koji si ti zivac kad te nije mrzelo sve ovo! :P

sto se bre nerviras, ako ti se tankuje idi tankuj niko ti nebrani, tj ako ti ljudi iz guilda dozvole, nema potreba da sve ovde ubedjujes kako je to dobro ili ne.

[Jouissance]

ovo je stara prica... iako uvek zanimljiv read, u svakom slucaju.

sva prorcaunjavanja za maul su, kako i sam tip kaze, "dream state", maul je next hit, sto ga cini veoma nepovoljnim za tanking, idealno SVAKI "beli" melee hit be trebalo da bude "zuti" maul, a svako ko je ikada tankovao ZNA da je ovo gotovo nemoguce (sto od laga, sto od pomeranja i pozicioniranja itd itd)

mnoge stvari su se promenile. cekaju se proracunavanja za lacerate, nemamo vise multipliers za threat, itd itd.

moj stav je da druid tesko moze da bude MT samo iz jednog jedinog razloga: magic damage. svi bossovi koriste neku formu magic damagea, i to takvu da kada guild pocne da "uci" tog bossa i warriori postanu jako teski za healovanje posto moraju da nerfuju statse za +res gear... za druida je to tek katastrofa - ovo pod pretpostavkom da ce uopste postojati +res gear napravljen za tanking druida, sto cisto sumnjam... za warriora ce UVEK biti napravljeni posebni +res dropovi, dok ce tank druid ostati na +sta +res crafted gear, sa malo AC i nekim nepotrebnim statom tipa AP (naravno, posto crafted +res gear "delimo" sa rogues).

incae, ne kapiram hejt na ovaj post... ako vam se ne cita, skip it and move on :)

[StormScion]

nwo ... imash teske komplexe ... ovo ti govorim od srca jer ... je stvarno bedak .

[amoskg]

Ok... sve u svemu koji ce nam kurac onda prot warovi???

[Kemp.]

ma ljudi ja mislim da je on kucao...

:DD

[Shale]

druid > warr

i h8 u all kk ?

[Mario^^]

Nisam sve chitao ofc... Al sa opremom u kojoj sam tankovo na 60. retko me kad bilo sta critovalo ili je bilo crushing blowova... A ovaj car uporedjuje koliko crituje druida , a koliko warriora i josh uporedjuje damage...

Mislim smeshno... druidi tankovi obichno imaju brdo armora i dodge-a, a skoro nista defense-a, to samo pucaju critovi i crushing blowovi na bossovima i uopste trashu u endgame-u... I josh kao block ... malo blokira damage-a i to... a nigde se ne spominje da kad blokirash udarac to ne moze da bude critical ili crushing blow, e sad ;

Ja sam imao oko ~27% block shanse uopste + svakih 6 sekundi imash free block + ako uzmesh talenat improved shield block koji je na samom pochetku protection tree-a ti imash 2 blocka u tih 6 sekundi, znachi dz 2 blocka + imash tu shansu za block + brdo defense-a + parry, dodge etc etc...

Tako da ono, sve u svemu, warriora retko bilo shta krituje...

Nikad se nisam zanosio mitigationom, to sve moze da se ishealuje, problem je burst damage koji warriori retko mogu da popiju ako je boss normalan ( znachi ne Unbalancing Strike, Hateful Strike, Mortal strike etc ).

Nego... iz ostalih postova vidim da ti je najvazniji taj threat... ne znam mnogo o druidima, al kolko sam chuo threat vam se scaluje sa gearom, mada su to kolko mi je poznato nesto nerfovali pre 2,3 patcha , citiram :

""Swipe" has had its threat bonus multiplier removed.

"Maul" has had its threat bonus multiplier changed to a flat value similar in threat per time to "Heroic Strike"."

Al kako god i da pravite vishe threata vishe od warriora, koga briga za to kad warrior i ovako obavlja posao u raidovima a mnogo je bolji izbor za tanka zbog vishe razloga koje sam naveo u drugom topicu ( mogucnost da iskoristi pot, healthstone, lifegiving gem <3, last stand, stance dance, block, parry , defense ( hit, crit , crushing blow manja mnogo shansa )...

Sve u svemu, warrior je i dalje najbolji tank u raidovima kad se radi o velikom dmg-u, druid je pravi izbor za tanka u 5 man instancama jer moze da drzi po 3 moba bez problema, al neshto vishe od toga...

A inache, smeshno mi, kao "guide to bear tanking" a ovamo pishe formule kako manje dmg-a prima od warriora... bash je guide za tankovanje, smejurija sve u svemu...

Edit : evo sad procitah jos malo i vidim da je ponegde pomenuo sve ovo sto sam i ja reko, kao i "It seems that Warriors will continue to have an advantage in every category over Druids in end-game tanking. I do, however, see the viability of Druids in this same role." :P

Edited February 5, 2007 by Shakzor

[StormScion]

Svako ko misli da je druid bolji tank od warriora ili paladina je u dubokoj zabludi .

Sva 3 tanka su dobra ... i sva 3 se medjusobno nadopunjuju ...

Isto tako su ljudi u zabludi koji misle da paladin ili druid ne moze da tankuje efikasno koliko i war .

[Kole]

neee scione! ne smesh da popustash! da bi progurao tu tezu "i druidi i pale i warovi su podjednako dobri korisni i potrebni" morash prvo da velichash druide i pale nadrealno da bi se drugi posle slozhili sa tobom kako su svi tu negde...ah da...vec postoje topici koji su pripremili teren, onda je sve u redu... =o)))

[New Order Footman (NWO)]

evo sad procitah jos malo i vidim da je ponegde pomenuo sve ovo sto sam i ja reko, kao i "It seems that Warriors will continue to have an advantage in every category over Druids in end-game tanking. I do, however, see the viability of Druids in this same role." :P

Svako ko misli da je druid bolji tank od warriora ili paladina je u dubokoj zabludi .

Sva 3 tanka su dobra ... i sva 3 se medjusobno nadopunjuju ...

Isto tako su ljudi u zabludi koji misle da paladin ili druid ne moze da tankuje efikasno koliko i war .

Ok, hvala, drago mi je da smo se razumeli :)

neee scione! ne smesh da popustash! da bi progurao tu tezu "i druidi i pale i warovi su podjednako dobri korisni i potrebni" morash prvo da velichash druide i pale nadrealno da bi se drugi posle slozhili sa tobom kako su svi tu negde...ah da...vec postoje topici koji su pripremili teren, onda je sve u redu... =o)))

Nije nadrealno velicati neke od prednosti koje klasa sa kojom igras poseduje nad svakom drugom, posebno ako su te prednosti zasnovane na cinjenicama koje se prezentuju.

Nadrealno je kad neko u globalu velica protection warriora kao pocetak i kraj price o tankovanju bez upustanja u detalje gde bi se doslo do zakljucka da i druid i paladin i warrior kao DRUGACIJI tankovi svaki sa odredjenim prednostima imaju mesta kao tankovi svuda u igri.

Primetices da izmedju drugaciji i bolji posoji razlika. :)

[PrimEviL]

a da li sada scion treba da otvori "extensive pala tanking guide" topic pa i da tamo pricamo o necemu o cemu nema potrebe raspravljati? happy, happy, joy, joy

[StormScion]

neee scione! ne smesh da popustash! da bi progurao tu tezu "i druidi i pale i warovi su podjednako dobri korisni i potrebni" morash prvo da velichash druide i pale nadrealno da bi se drugi posle slozhili sa tobom kako su svi tu negde...ah da...vec postoje topici koji su pripremili teren, onda je sve u redu... =o)))

Realno ... zabole me da ja nekome nesta dokazujem ... igram ovu ... igru?! tj drogiram se ovim sranjem samo zbog sebe .

Beste sivi oblaci .

@Primevil ... e sta radi Taraba ?! :P

[PrimEviL]

taraba igra warlocka posto ga je ronin transferovao na sylvanas :D tako je bar rekao da ce raditi...

[coll]

a da li sada scion treba da otvori "extensive pala tanking guide" topic pa i da tamo pricamo o necemu o cemu nema potrebe raspravljati? happy, happy, joy, joy

Mogu ja? Mogu ja? Vec imam ideju...

[PrimEviL]

NOOOO ne moze!!! scion je jedini autorizovan za to.. ako ti on da dozvolu onda moze :)

[StormScion]

Imam ja poverenja u nikolu ... young palawans will be give chance ...

joda i must have become .

jedan uslov je samo da se topic zove 1001 nachin za bubbleovanje .

Edited February 7, 2007 by Ayreon

[PrimEviL]

*otisao po kokice while waiting for colldors adventures* [:D]

[coll]

in progress